Jun 20, 2024
Podcasts

This NY Team is Fighting an Anti Trans Sports Ban

This February in Long Island, Nassau County Executive Bruce Blakeman issued an executive order banning transgender girls and women from participating in girls’ and women’s sports at county-run facilities. The NYCLU sued to block this policy, arguing that it violates New York’s Human Rights Law and Civil Rights Law, which explicitly prohibit discrimination based on gender identity. Justice prevailed and, in May, the Nassau County Supreme Court ruled in the NYCLU and Roller Rebels’ favor, striking down the executive order.

Then, shortly after we recorded this podcast, the Nassau County Legislature introduced legislation designed to resurrect Blakeman’s ban. The bill is slated to be voted on later in June. The NYCLU’s Nassau field office is mobilizing with other advocates to stop the bill in its tracks including organizing rallies and getting people to testify against the bill. But if it passes, the NYCLU will file another lawsuit to strike it down.

Blakeman claims Nassau’s trans ban will protect cisgender women and girls. But on this episode, we’ll explore why the order is actually a harmful, transphobic policy designed to shut trans people out of public spaces. We’ll hear from two NYCLU lawyers who brought the case, and from the president of the Long Island Roller Rebels, a team in the Nassau County Recreational Women’s Flat Track Roller Derby League. The Roller Rebels are the plaintiffs in our case. Their league, which welcomes trans women, was barred from using Nassau County’s facilities under the executive order.

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Transcript

Simon: [00:00:00] This February on Long Island, Nassau County Executive Bruce Blakeman issued an executive order banning transgender girls and women from participating in girls and women’s sports at county run facilities. The NYCLU sued to block this policy, arguing that it violates New York’s human rights law and civil rights law, which explicitly prohibit discrimination based on gender identity.

Justice prevailed, and last month the Nassau County Supreme Court ruled in the NYCLU and Roller Rebels’ favor, striking down the executive order. Then, shortly after we recorded this podcast, the Nassau County Legislature introduced legislation designed to resurrect Blakeman’s ban. The bill is slated to be voted on later this month.

The NYCLU’s Nassau field office is mobilizing with other advocates to stop the bill in its tracks, including organizing rallies and getting people to testify against the bill. But if it passes, the NYCLU will file another lawsuit to [00:01:00] strike it down. Blakeman claims Nassau’s trans ban will protect cisgender women and girls.

But on this episode, we’ll explore why the order is actually a harmful transphobic policy designed to shut trans people out of public spaces. We’ll hear from two NYCLU lawyers who brought the case, and from the president of the Long Island Roller Rebels, a team in the Nassau County Recreational Women’s Flat Track Roller Derby League.

Curly Fry: I get a lot of joy and community out of roller derby. I think that I would probably not be as well adjusted, in my adult life at this point at 32, if I didn’t have this sport be a part of my life.

Simon: The Roller Rebels are the plaintiffs in our case. Their league, which welcomes trans women, was barred from using Nassau County’s facilities under the executive order. Before we get started, I’d like to ask you to please download, rate, review, and subscribe to Rights [00:02:00] This Way. It will help more people find this podcast.

Welcome to Rights This Way, a podcast from the New York Civil Liberties Union, the ACLU of New York State. I’m Simon McCormack, senior staff writer at the NYCLU and your host for this podcast, which is focused on the civil rights and liberties issues that impact New Yorkers most.

And now I’m joined by three guests, Gabriella Larios is a staff attorney at the New York Civil Liberties Union. Bobby Hodgson is the NYCLU’s assistant legal director and Curly Fry is president of the Long Island Roller Rebels, a team in the Nassau County Recreational Women’s Flat Track Roller Derby League.

Gaby, Bobby, Curly, welcome to Rights This Way.

Gaby: Thanks so much for having us.

Curly Fry: Thanks for having us.

Bobby: Thanks so much for having us.

Simon: Great to have you and Gaby, I wanna start with you and just [00:03:00] ask you to lay out our case, why we filed it, and also tell us a bit about the latest news on the case.

Gaby: Sure, so back in February of this year, Nassau County Executive Bruce Blakeman issued an executive order, suddenly, out of nowhere, with no notice to anybody, saying that transgender women and girls could not participate on women’s and girls’ sports teams at Nassau County facilities. This was announced at a press conference without any notice to any of the teams that were going to be subject to it, and it was, it’s a really sweeping order in all respects.

It applies to a hundred different athletic facilities on county properties – from basketball courts to swimming pools to roller rinks – really everything, and it applies recreationally, competitively, everywhere. We immediately filed this case on behalf of the Roller Rebels because as a women’s team that includes and welcomes transgender women, the Roller Rebels were barred [00:04:00] from using Nassau County facilities for as long as this order was in effect.

Curly can talk a little bit more about this. but the Roller Rebels are a Nassau County based team. They’ve been here since 2005 and they had been looking to expand and grow their team, including by using Nassau County facilities they’ve used in the past and want to continue using. But under the order, they were being punished solely because they are a team that welcome transgender women. So the Roller Rebels and the NYCLU brought this lawsuit challenging the executive order and alleging that it violated the state human rights law and the state civil rights law, which explicitly prohibit discrimination on the basis of transgender status.

Here you have this order that treats transgender women and girls differently than it treats cisgender women and girls. So, its sole purpose is to discriminate against transgender women and girls. And to us, this was a clear violation of these anti-discrimination laws. The Attorney General said the same thing.

This is a clear violation of the state’s anti [00:05:00] discrimination laws. So we brought this lawsuit. We were seeking expedited relief, you know, because the Roller Rebels had a pending permit application to use these facilities. So we filed in March. Went through the whole briefing process, and then we got a decision striking down the entire order. The court found that the county executive didn’t have authority to issue this order and therefore the order could not be enforced, was vacated, and now there is no executive order.

The Roller Rebels and others are free to use Nassau County facilities however they see fit and will no longer be barred just because they have inclusive participation policies.

Simon: Okay, excellent and, Bobby, I’m curious, in that May 10th order, what exactly did the judge say when he struck down the order?

Bobby: Sure. So in, in the judge’s order he basically said that Nassau County Executive Bruce Blakeman has a sort of limited set of things he’s allowed to do. He has a limited scope of his [00:06:00] authority. And that did not include issuing what was essentially like a legislative type enactment. This is the kind of thing that the judge found was something for a legislature to do. The state legislature or the judge suggested a county legislature could pass a rule like this. But because of sort of separation of powers issues, an executive like Bruce Blakeman is not in a place where he can unilaterally issue an executive order that essentially creates a new law.

And that’s what he found he did. And he said, for that reason relying on some cases where similar issues had cropped up with New York City mayors issuing executive orders in the past and in some other contexts, he said, that’s it. This is a sort of dry question of whether Bruce Blakeman himself had the authority to do this. And his answer was no.

Simon: Got it, but Bobby, we are, and as Gaby mentioned in her answer, the judge didn’t really get to some of the meat and heart of what we’re alleging here, but we’re still confident that on the – even if you were to [00:07:00] go beyond the question of whether Blakeman himself has the authority – we’re feeling confident that beyond that, our arguments are strong here. Is that–?

Bobby: Absolutely. I mean, I think, you know, a win is a win, and a full win that permanently enjoins and strikes down a really insidious and terrible enactment. It’s something that will happily take. But to be clear, this is a, an executive order that on its face, violates our state anti-discrimination laws.

We have a state human rights law and a state civil rights law that very specifically say in the context of public accommodations, that’s what this is about. These are publicly run facilities that are supposed to be open to all comers and really can’t be discriminating on the basis of race, on the basis of sex, on the basis of sexual orientation, gender identity, and expression.

That’s what our laws say. Okay. The executive order on its face is targeting transgender people and excluding them from those public spaces on the basis of their transgender status. So I think there is no question that this is an [00:08:00] executive order that would fall under, you know, many different legal theories.

And uh, that’s what the State Attorney General said when she first sent that cease-and-desist letter Gaby referred to back at the end of February of this year.

Simon: Got it, and Curly, I want to bring you in here. I’m just curious what was your first reaction to the executive order? Do you remember like where you were how you found out? What was your, just take us through your initial take.

Curly Fry: My initial take was to feel very kind of dysregulated, very uncomfortable, distraught, like, I don’t know, think of any negative adjectives and throw me on the couch and that’s basically where I was the night that – it was actually League members who shared it with me that this had come to pass.

And I know how, there are some in Long Island that can be conservative leaning. But I think that proximity to New York felt – you know, to [00:09:00] Manhattan – and knowing that we have these laws in place, it just felt that, how could this be?

I’ve played roller derby for a long time and, it is just a very welcoming space for queer people in general, and especially trans women and gender expansive people, and so you know, for something like this to happen I was like, where are we gonna go from here?

And it really, I think immediately the team rallied and wanted to do something about it, which was awesome.

Simon: Curly, let’s talk a little bit about that the, your sort of experience doing roller derby, and how accepting it is. Can you talk about like, why you got into it? How, you know, you’ve obviously been doing it for quite a number of years now. What are the benefits of it for you? What do you like about it?

Curly Fry: Yeah, so the benefits, I’ll start there, are definitely being able to move my body and kind of have an outlet for exercise that it definitely keeps me, going on a day-to-day basis. I even work out [00:10:00] actively, so that way I don’t get injured playing roller derby. And that’s highly encouraged by the WFPDA, which is our kind of like parent organization that we, work with them for insurance purposes as well as look to them for rule sets and officiating regulations, et cetera. And I think ultimately, like, I get a lot of joy and community out of roller derby. I think that I would probably not be as well adjusted, in my adult life at this point at 32, if I didn’t have this sport be a part of my life.

Simon: And what made you want to be a part of this case?

Curly Fry: Yeah. So I think the impetus is really about. Standing up for, like, not only just our policy, but people outside of our league who might come and play with us, people who might want to join us, you know, people who in [00:11:00] our league, maybe they don’t really disclose – we don’t know. And ultimately we wanted to protect our league members and for us, we felt that if we were going to try to expand to Nassau County facilities in terms of, like practice, playing games, we didn’t want our members in any way to be subject to, like, any kind of policing. That just seemed really scary to have to deal with.

Simon: That makes sense. And Gaby, I’m curious, why do you think sports and in particular this so-called defense that Blakeman is using here that, you know, he claims he’s protecting cis women and girls. Why has that been such a potent weapon in the effort to curtail trans people’s rights?

Gaby: I think that sort of justification plays into harmful stereotypes and misconceptions and misinformation on every possible side. First, by saying that cis women and girls need protection, you’re saying that cis women and girls are [00:12:00] weak and can’t, you know, stand up for themselves, and plays into really harmful stereotypes that have plagued women for centuries.

While at the same time perpetuating really deadly and dangerous stereotypes about trans women and girls that construes their, you know, mere existence as a threat to those around them. So it’s harmful in both ways, and it’s not grounded in any sort of reality on either front. I think it taps into fears that people have about, you know, gender equity in sports and the lack of parity that has existed for decades. But these kinds of categorical bans don’t do anything to address those very real problems. It doesn’t do anything to address funding of women’s sports, resources for women’s sports, any of those issues that plague athletics, both in Nassau County and beyond.

And I think, you know, the more people learn about these bans and what they require, the more people are upset by them and come to realize that, you know, this is just a smoke show, this is just scapegoating. So this is an order [00:13:00] that requires sports teams to disclose the sex assigned at birth of all of their players.

For teams like the Roller Rebels, they don’t collect that information about their players, they welcome people without, you know, checking birth certificates or anything like that. So, it is an order that like Curly said, it invites and requires policing of people’s gender. This hurts cis women and trans women alike.

In states that have passed similar laws, we have seen, surveillance and harassment of both cis and trans women who might appear too masculine or might, you know, be too strong to be considered a real woman by some people. And a lot of those, comments and stereotypes are also, you know, really rooted in racism and policing of black women specifically.

So there are just layers upon layers of misinformation and harm that permeate all of these trans sports, bands, and athletics. But I think, these are orders and laws that are a solution in search of a problem. The county executive could not identify any real [00:14:00] problems in New York State, despite this being the law since the 70s, trans women have been playing on women’s sports, at least in New York State.

And it’s not a real problem here, it’s not a real problem elsewhere, and it’s nothing more than scapegoating, but I think, you know, They are able to tap into these fears that people have so, you know, we need more education about the real issues facing women in sports and the real effect of these bans and how it hurts all participation in sports across the board.

Simon: Yeah. And Curly, I’m curious if you want to weigh in on that. And also you’d mentioned a little bit about this in one of your previous answers but I’m curious your reaction of your teammates and the rest of the roller league since you filed the lawsuit.

Curly Fry: Yeah, so while Gaby was talking a bit, I flashback to when I was a kid, I played on the West Hempstead Soccer League, this is in Nassau County. And I remember, a mom, because I guess I, like, knocked over her kid [00:15:00] while I was playing soccer, referred to me as a, I don’t know, like a Mack truck or something to that effect.

And I think about that moment proudly, right? Cause I’m just like, yeah, I’m like, so strong. But, I also thought about how different that moment could have been if that mom then, alerted an official, saying that, like, oh, that person’s, like, You know, could be a trans girl and therefore, should be checked and shouldn’t be put to be able to play.

And that to me is, just so like, such an awful, scary thought. And thinking about that, I’m like, you know, I’m so glad that we did this because I don’t want, any kid to have to go through something like that. Or anybody just in general. You know, I think sports are a wonderful way to just engage with people around you.

And like win or lose, you always get something from it. And then, in terms of my team and how we all kind of rallied around this I would be [00:16:00] lying. I was like, yeah, we were all like, let’s go. Like, we all considered, what the risks were. Especially because we knew that, like, there would potentially be news around this. I believe it or not. A lot of people in roller derby are not attention seekers. We are all a group of a bunch of awkward, elder, emo kids, essentially. And so we’re trying to just players for, and, we felt as a league that this was the right thing to take a stand on. We do, like,

community giving back within our league, but this is definitely like with something outside of our realm. So we talked about the risk. And I think we all felt that it was the right thing to do. And we definitely went forward with it, but there’s like moms on the team. There’s people with wives and jobs and, you know, people were nervous because is a lot of hate that is given to the LGBTQIA community at large, and especially to trans [00:17:00] women. And, you know, especially at the intersection of, any community of color, black trans women are being murdered in this country at like, ridiculous rates and we’re sitting here talking about, you know, trans girls playing sports, like Gaby said there’s just more important problems to be dealing with.

And this just felt like scapegoating. And so we much like in roller derby love to get in the way.

Simon: Well, we’re, we’re very glad that you decided to get in the way. And Bobby, I’m curious, what specifically did we ask the court to do and what’s next for the case now that the judge has struck down the executive order.

Bobby: Sure. I mean, that’s an easy one. We asked the judge to strike down the order, and the judge struck down the order. So, we can celebrate and enjoy, what’s next in the first instance is, this is great. Everybody in Nassau County can breathe a little easier. And this executive order has absolutely no effect and cannot be implemented under the court’s order.

Also what happens [00:18:00] is other folks around the state who are looking at this case and who are looking at what Bruce Blakeman did and the attention that he got. Are on notice that this is not the kind of thing that’ll stand. This is the kind of thing that’ll get struck down very quickly. So, that’s wonderful.

That’s the immediate effect of this order. Further down the road, Nassau County has, filed the required paperwork for them to appeal. That’s a process that could go forward. It could take quite some time for them to do that. But That’s.

for another day. those are arguments that could show up before Appellate courts or even New York State’s highest court obviously what happened here happened before what’s called the New York State Supreme Court, which is the trial level court where you sort of originate your cases and they could seek to have that overturned. But we feel really confident that’s not going to happen and that any court that looks at this is going to see it the same way we saw it, the same way the Attorney General saw it.

I was going to say this is an illegal executive order that, that really can’t stand.

Simon: As we wrap up here What do you all hope that this case [00:19:00] accomplishes and what we get from this legal endeavor?

Gaby, I’ll start with you.

Gaby: Sure. I think the easy answer to that is, you know, we hope that this Lawsuit, this decision, any future litigation around these issues shows that this kind of discrimination will not stand here in New York. We have some of the strongest anti discrimination laws in the country, and we will continue to enforce them and make sure that this is a safe place for all LGBTQ people.

I think beyond the legal effects of this case, I think to me it’s also really important for trans people and trans youth in particular to know that they have people who are going to be fighting for them no matter what. Especially when there is this rhetoric in their county, across the country, everywhere, saying that, you know, they don’t get to participate in public life, that they shouldn’t get to be part of their communities like everybody else.

So in addition to securing legal victories, it’s also really important to show support in really direct and concrete ways [00:20:00] to trans people in this moment right now.

Curly Fry: I will jump in. I think that kind of go off of what Gaby was saying. I think that. this win is huge, like, it shows that, you know, everyday people can absolutely make a difference and advocate for others even, if they’re not necessarily directly, experiencing the same experience that you are in life.

And I think that. being a part of this is very cool. And I think in many ways with a fire under myself, and I know that it, within the roller derby community lit a fire under a lot of others, you know, who I know we’re probably feeling like, hopeless and helpless as if, what can we do and this definitely sets a precedent for what can be done.

Bobby: Yeah. I mean, I’ll echo what Curly and Gaby said. I’ll say again, because I said it before, but it’s worth repeating. I [00:21:00] hope this scares off anybody who thought they could do this somewhere else in New York state and really make some question that course of action.

I think this is also an opportunity, not just to sort of, you know, celebrate what the Roller Rebels have achieved by bringing this case and, showing that the power standing up for your rights and for other people’s rights. But also, you know, this is an issue that I think some people around the state have not thought about at all and to the extent that this is a case that gave people the chance to hear some stories from the role rebels, from other people who were affected by the executive order and to start to understand a little bit better number one, the fact that, as Gaby said, trans folks have been participating in sports, without incident, in New York State for decades at the sort of status quo that has existed.

Which has been informed by, you know, really good and helpful anti discrimination laws that say really simply that you can’t be, targeting people based on their gender identity and excluding them from things. Those laws have been working and that, the status quo of people going about their [00:22:00] lives, participating in sports, not getting fired from their jobs, not getting discriminated against in school, that is a status quo that we want to keep.

Keep going here in New York. And it is very much the case that what Bruce Blakeman tried to do, what Nassau tried to do, that was overstepping. That was, sort of big government trying to step in and tell people how to run their lives, how to run their sports leagues how to, come in and, decide what’s safe and what’s not for people who are very much in the place to be deciding that for themselves.

So I hope people take this case and look at it and understand a little bit more about what’s been going on in New York for many decades and what’s going on now and the real motivations behind some of these efforts.

Simon: And with that Curly, Gaby, Bobby, thank you all so very much for joining us on Rights This Way.

Gaby: Thanks for having us.

Curly Fry: Thank you.